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944 brakes ona bug link

Brastic

New member
Every time I am at the junk yard, and I find a 944, I always look the the rear suspension and brakes. The really do look like VW bug rear suspension. I can see how a little welding could make this happen.
 

vwdevotee

New member
Hi. I'm new to the forum, but I've got a touch of experience with Porsche suspensions swaps.

The first 944's actually borrowed its original suspension design from the superbeetle, and therefore it will actually bolt straight in without any real modifications. In order to use the front brakes from the 944 there are a few modifications that to the Porsche hub and the VW spindle that are needed but you can call Lanner at VW Engineering in Canada and he can hook you up on those.

As for the rear suspension, the earliest 944 trailing arms are dimensionally the same as an type 1 IRS trailing arm, but Porsche added an additional piece of steel inside the arm for strength. Also, the 944 used a cast aluminum backing plate that mounted the parking drum brake and the caliper to the arm. The rear disc just slid onto the porsche hub from there. In about '85.5 or '86 Porsche changed out the stamped steel trailing arm for a cast aluminum one on the 944 Turbo. These whole trailing arms still bolt in place of the original ones adding about 24mm of track to each side. From '87 on, all 944's used a different cast aluminum trailing arm, with a hub set up for ABS that adds about 72mm per side. From '85.5 on all 944 Turbo's used fixed 4 piston brembo calipers while the naturally aspirated 944 used single piston sliding calipers (ATE I think, but I'm not positive).

In pace Domini

Damon
 

farfegnubbin

Site Owner
Staff member
Thanks for that post, Damon. You have some good details and information that I was missing.

I first learned that it was possible to use 944 rear suspension on a Bug from an article in a book I found a Carlisle a few years ago. (I remember being incredibly surprised that Porsche was still using essentially the exact same suspension geometry as VW had been using for more than a decade. Must have been a good design!)

I never got around to doing the installation on my car...yet...but I did go as far as to pick up a pair of complete 944 trailing arms with hubs, brakes, etc.

Below are some old photos from my archive that I took the weekend the trailing arms were delivered. You can see how similar they are to the Bug trailing arms. And you can also see the differences: The brake rotor are MASSIVE compared to the Bug's, and the whole arm is much beefier and stronger.

I've been told that you have to alter at least one of the bolt points where the spring arm attaches, and you have to machine the urethane donut where the arm attaches, both of which are relatively minor modifications. It still blows my mind that these two cars -- a little beetle-shaped passenger car from the '60s and '70s versus a front engine, rear drive sports car from the '80s -- can share these parts. Pretty cool.

I didn't know that it increased the track a little. Thanks for that information.

For those of you who don't already know, an inch = 25.4 mm. So according to Damon's info, the conversion ads about an inch to the track, overall. (Or three inches in the later models of 944s).

Here are the photos of 944 turbo trailing arms sitting next to the stock Bug trailing arms on my blue Sterling:

944_brakes-1.jpg 944_brakes-2.jpg 944_brakes-3.jpg
 

vwdevotee

New member
Hi. As far as modifying the attachment points, there shouldn't be any machine work involved. It's the inner pivot bolt that needs to be changed, but all you have to do is pop out the rubber bushing and push in a Beelt bushing. The only difference between the Beetle bushing and the 944 Turbo bushing is the bolt size. Oddly enough, the Porsche uses something like a 1/2 inch bolt, but the Volkswagen uses a monster bolt that's closer to 3/4 inch.

One thing I forgot to mention is that in order to use the Porsche trailing arms, you have to also use the Porsche axles and 100mm CV joint output flanges on the transaxle.

Pax Christi

Damon
 

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farfegnubbin

Site Owner
Staff member
Yes, thanks for the clarification. I know from reading that there isn't any metal that needs to be machined differently at the hinge point. But I remember that something had to be subtly changed about the rubber/urethane donut. I guess it was simply that difference in bolt size. I've been told that most of the (small handful of) people who've done this swap usually "upgrade" to urethane bushings in part because they can machine the urethane more ealisy than the stock rubber to make these small alterations.

(I've been told you can machine rubber, but you have to do something odd like freeze it in dry ice first. Never tried it.)

And yep, you need at least the Porsche outer CV joints. Damon, do you know whether the Porsche half-axles mate directly up with the Bug trans? I was going to use Bug half-axles that were modified to accept the Porsche outer CV joint. Do you know what other people have done to solve that? I know I've seen Bug-to-Porsche axles in magazines, but I don't know which parts were borrowed from which cars.
 

vwdevotee

New member
If you take a look at the Porsche trailing arms you'll see that the stub axle is tucked way back inside of it. It turns out the you need to use the 944 Turbo axle because it is about 5 inches longer than the bug axle. You can still get away without having to use any crazy or custom parts though, since the 944 just used 100mm type 4 CV joints. This means that you can swap out the type 1 gearbox output flanges for Thing flanges, or if you want to use a type 2 gearbox you're golden since it already uses 100mm flanges.



If anyone is interested in doing the conversion I'm selling a basically complete "kit" for it. I've gathered everything and had all the front spindle machine work done, but have just run out of time and money to finish the conversion.
 

ydeardorff

New member
That sounds great, but how would one get 944 brakes all the way around, since most of the braking power comes from the front.

Also, how would one adapt the axles when using the scooby motor and trans?

I mean, the inner half shafts would have to be scooby right? then the axle, and Im guessing 944 turbo or type 4 bits after that?

Where does one go to get such a frankenstein part made like that?
 

vwdevotee

New member
In order to make the front brakes big and impressive Porsche bits, you have to machine the Porsche hubs (I used '86 parts because they are narrower on the front too) to use type 1 bearing and to fit on standard beetle spindles. Once the hubs are fit and the disc is on you can fit the caliper using a custom adapter. I had all that work done by VW Engineering in Canada. Lanner (of VW Engineering) does his modifications in such a way that he only changes parts that don't get replaced. That way the caliper, rotor, and the bearings are unmodified stock items that can be sourced from any parts house. Take a look at the pictures below.


As far as connecting everything to a Scooby trans, I think you're out of my league. Do you know how big the CV joint on the output flange is? Or does it use one of the big tripod joints where you have to replace the whole halfshaft? If it's conveniently 100mm then you might be able to get away with using the Porsche/VW joints. Also, do you know how the width of the gearbox across the CV joints compares to the same dimension on a type 1 gearbox? If it's narrower than the VW gearbox you might be able to use adapter plates so that all of the parts that might need replacement over time are production parts.

Peace!
 

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ydeardorff

New member
Very nice,
Thanks that good info. Id be nice if we had a common teh section for common questions like this.

I do wonder if the red 9 guys selling those front ends would offer a 944, or 911 setup on their products?
Id be nice to have it already done and ready to go on the unit once installed.
 

vwdevotee

New member
I'm not sure who/what Red 9 is, but the system does just bolt onto a standard type 1 pan. If you get the machine work done by Lanner he can supply all of the parts from his stash and then it's no different anyone else supplying it. all you have to do it put the brakes on and bolt it to the car.
 

jmd

New member
me too!

Hey guys,
I have done this entire conversion front and back using 1987 944T parts.
Here is a flikr page to see the parts and the process...
madison - a set on Flickr

this will show all the parts, and the process of making it all work.

If you do it get everything from the wheels in so that you have all the parts.

let me know if you guys have any questions.
 

ydeardorff

New member
Very nice JMD!

I wonder how costly this upgrade is.
Im wondering if it might be cheaper to buy a whole bone yard car.

What did the entire upgrade run you? How long did it take to do?
Any special tools needed?
How did you get the axle stubs and drive shafts to work? Im looking at using a suby trans, so I imagine the custom axles will be spendy.
 
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ydeardorff

New member
Im finally making my move on the 944 turbo parts.
The rear is pretty much a no brainer, but the fronts Im perplexed on.

Is it just the hubs, or the the spindle too that is used. I dont want to buy parts I dont need.

To answer my own post here, i found out finally that lanner engineering does all the work.
You need the spindle and everything that's attached to it, as well as you VW parts.
it costs about $340 CDN plus shipping both ways, and when you send him your VW, and porsche bits, the Porsche bits come back as a direct bolt on to your car.:D
 
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ydeardorff

New member
After some tech research I found out the following about doing the 944 turbo suspension and brake modification to the type 1 bug chassis (IRS).
As Brett and I both are looking at wheel options anyone doing this modification will need this info.
The offset changes are as follows:
Front: increase of 12mm per side
Rear: increase of 22mm per side

So the over all track will increase ~ 1 inch in the front, and ~2 inches in the rear.

As you know this will change what your tire and wheel combo will be.
Also changing to porsche hubs which are on the turbo aluminum, they cannot be redrilled for a different bolt pattern. you will be stuck with the 5 x 130mm bolt pattern. This will impact your available choices for wheels significantly.
Given the width of the fenders on the even a stock sterling, anyone doing this will be forced to look at multi-piece wheels that can be ordered with custom offset/bolt pattern/back spacing/diameter/ and width.
Stock bug can get away with using bbs porsche wheels due to their fenders not being so wide.
So keep that in mind if you choose this upgrade path.
For me this is one of those hindsite 20/20 things.

After contacting vdub engineering I also found this:
Other front hubs and spindles can be used in place of 944 parts if you cant find them.
Quote from vdub engineering:
"As long as the rotors mount to the front of the hub. And all year 928/968. And late style 944/951.
I can use those as base for any kit, 944t, 993, 996, boxster, boxster s...."
 
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