What's new
By:
Filters

Yamaha R1 alternative

letterman7

letterman7

Honorary Admin
Now, I'm not a fan of bike engines into cars, but I stumbled across a Mini with a conversion on eBay. The conversion is actually a kit from a UK manufacturer that puts an entire new subframe into an older style Mini Cooper that holds a R1 engine. The kit gives you the shifter, a reverse kit, the subframe and a lot of accessories for the price: R1 Kit Info - Pro-Motive

Might be an interesting experiment for someone with a tube frame - something that would keep the overall weight of the vehicle down so the engine could get into it's powerband at a lower rpm.
 
Brett Proctor

Brett Proctor

Well-known member
Yaughn and I were talking about this awhile back(via email) but we were thinking that something like a goldwing engine would be better. It has a reverse in the gear box already and it has an over drive in the transmission. the engine has good low end torque and the power curve is right where you need it(not pipey). Plus I think depending on the year the engines are 1.8 L .

The conversation didn't go much farther than that, Size wise I don't know if its any smaller than a car engine or if its any lighter and depending on the year the newer goldwing engines are a 6 cylinder.

A long time ago I use to work on engines for dwarf cars(I think they're call something different now)but they used motorcycle engines(FZR and GSXR)and I had a chance to drive one. They were really fast. The 1000cc engines had no problem moving them along. An adapter was welded on the counter shaft sprocket that would allow you to install a drive shaft to and then ran that to the rear diff of the car. Engine sat sideways.

Brett
 
letterman7

letterman7

Honorary Admin
:) Yeah, I had thought about a v6 Goldwing engine when I had my dune buggy. It was about as heavy as the standard Beetle engine with slightly more torque and horsepower... couldn't figure out how to set up the driveline though with the transmission. This R1 adapter uses the bike transmission as well, so it takes that portion out of the equation, but makes me wonder about how the bike transmission would handle the weight of a car for long periods of time.
 
Brett Proctor

Brett Proctor

Well-known member
couldn't figure out how to set up the driveline though with the transmission.
Click to expand...

That was an issue also brought up. Since there was no transaxle you would need a rear dif to connect the two together. The newer versions of the goldwing are shaft drive so all you would need then is a rear differential to connect the drive shaft too. Just make a custom drive shaft. Of course the only way this was going to work is if the engine was mid mounted. So you would need a custom tubular frame to mount the engine far enough forward so you could have the room for a drive shaft to connect the two together. And if you do this then you will need to make the rear suspension also. After being in the pick a part yards for so many times and looking at subaru parts the rear differentials on the subarus seem like they would work great for this application.
I have no doubt in my mind that it can be done, its just if your willing to flip the bill to have it done.
One other thing that might be a cool factor is that the goldwing has an electric reverse. So all you would do is push a button to put it reverse.

I'm surprised that Yaughn hasn't chimmed in. He loves this kind of stuff.

Brett
 
letterman7

letterman7

Honorary Admin
:D He hasn't been on the board recently. Must be busy with other stuff. I'd be curious to see if the engine would drive through a regular Beetle transaxle via an adapter plate, sort of like the VW powered motorcycles. If the engine rotated in the "wrong" direction (don't know since I've not seen one running recently) then a mid-engine setup could be configured.


I'll have to start looking into this stuff again...
 
Brett Proctor

Brett Proctor

Well-known member
I'd be curious to see if the engine would drive through a regular Beetle transaxle via an adapter plate, sort of like the VW powered motorcycles
Click to expand...

Well you got me stumped on that one. The engine has no flanged surface for the adapter to bolt too so connecting a motorcycle engine to a transaxle would be a problem. Something else to remember is that the engine already has a transmission so you wouldn't want to have a transaxle.
If you would install a subaru differential in the same area as the VW transaxle then it would be just a matter of how far back the engine would have to go to use a modified drive shaft to connect the two. Then you can retain the VW suspension. But like you said engine rotation maybe an issue

Never saw or heard of a VW powered motorcycle.

Brett
 
letterman7

letterman7

Honorary Admin
*laugh* You can see my inexperience with motorcycle engines. While I had a 650 Honda some time back, I had always assumed there was some sort of flange where it hooked up with the transmission. After looking at a few Goldwing motors on eBay last night, it's very obvious that there isn't! Kinda cool, though - very low and wide... just the thing for a 2F1R kind of bike...

As for the VW powered bikes, they were mostly conversions built by companies called Butterfield and Willis 4:

Butterfield conversion:
Butterfield conversion BMW.jpg

Willis 4:
Willis 4 converted BMW.jpg

Both used a BMW frame and transmission since it was shaft drive. Haven't found a bellhousing for sale anywhere and I've been looking for quite a while!

There was also a company in Brazil that was custom making bikes called Amazonas 1600 - huge things, powered by VW: Amazonas 1600
 
Last edited:
Brett Proctor

Brett Proctor

Well-known member
Its got to make you wonder what they were thinking when they did that.*insane*

I think*hmmm* (I'm not positive)the only current motorcycle being built that the gear box isn't part of the engine cases is a Harley Davidson. The engine and the gear box are seperate. So how do you think a sterling would sound with a Harley engine in it. That would turn heads. It would probably be easier to put a Harley engine in the sterling also.
Maybe we can get that car warrior show to do a sterling episode. Naw, they would probably screw it up.

Brett
 
Y

ydeardorff

New member
I brought all this up to my engineering teacher (X prize 5th place winner) and his response was "gearing and torque is easy through reduction". This is of course as we both stood over a CNC built V-8 made from CBR600 parts. 240HP and a V-8 the size of an avg cooler.*thumbs up* This is one of my college requirements.*rock on* for my bachelors degree!*rock on* God I love college! My teacher LOVES my sterling GTR project!
Just imagine what a V-12 using CBR600 or Hayabusa parts could do for our cars?!:D

And yes Ive been off-line and busy lately. Just managed a college degree and now switched schools and going toward the next.*rock on*

My goal is to bring the sterling into the school and make a usable micro-V-12 power train for it using motorcycle parts*rock on* for it.*thumbs up*

Even the trannnies are CNC biult at this college.Chck out VRI(vehicle research institute)@ WWU
 
Last edited:
letterman7

letterman7

Honorary Admin
*thumbs up* Sweet - good luck on your next phase at school. Sometimes I wish I had the time/money to go back to something like what you are doing, but there are no technical schools nearby (UTI, but it's basic stuff) that would push the envelope like yours.

As for the CNC milled V8... photos, or it didn't happen *laugh*
 
Y

ydeardorff

New member
letterman7 said:
*thumbs up* Sweet - good luck on your next phase at school. Sometimes I wish I had the time/money to go back to something like what you are doing, but there are no technical schools nearby (UTI, but it's basic stuff) that would push the envelope like yours.

As for the CNC milled V8... photos, or it didn't happen *laugh*
Click to expand...

Nope, i was, and have been kicking myself ever since for not taking photos. I blaming the train wreck
syndrome over the V8. I was already in sensory overload, and when I saw that V8 I about lost my cool.
They use the Pistons, cylinder sleeves, and heads off of the CBR 600 then CNC their own block, con rods, and crank. I of course started day dreaming of a V12, to a V16 inspired version Not unlike a F1 car. Then of course this being placed in the sterling.

They also make their own transmissions, and gear sets too. If I can Ill snap a photo next time Im there. I cant wait to play with their foundry. They use lost foam method for their casting the blocks. Then the blocks go into the CNC machine.

The teacher and I were connecting in a very cool way. He was very interested in my sterling and my redesign project. It would be cool if I could manage to get my sterling into this classroom!:D
 
letterman7

letterman7

Honorary Admin
:D You guys should make a trip out to Carlisle this year. There are promises of some wonderful things coming from the Bernardi faction and Dave at SSC.
 
Y

ydeardorff

New member
Maybe, a low cost bolt/weld on mid engine kit for the sterling? That would be awesome. hmm maybe if dave doesnt do it, ill take this on as one of my engineering projects (if the professor will let me).

A micro mid engine V-8 powered sterling would be insane! And its the same HP output as my 2.0 liter 4 cylinder WRX turbocharged engine.

Im very interested in what dave may come up with. I had emailed him a while ago about a bolt on chassis. It would use the pan as the primary frame component, but include new suspension points, roll bar, and steering system.

It is hard to believe and old school Mini weighing 1160kg AKA 2500 pounds can move like that with a hyabusa engine. But Formula 1 has been using micro sized V-12''s for decades, look what they can do.

I was a little bit bigger than this one by about 2X.

Mini V8 - YouTube
 
Last edited:
letterman7

letterman7

Honorary Admin
:D I especially liked the shot when the guys were looking at the computer screen and it had "Installation Instructions" over the diagram...
 
Y

ydeardorff

New member
Back on topic to this R1 motor idea.
I have contacted a few companies and talked to my engineering professor on this.
From the companies they said the motors require a complete rebuild about every 1000 miles.

So I asked my professor why.
It turns out it has nothing to do with HP, or the Torque the motor puts out. Thats fine. It has to do with the surface area on the con-rods, and the crank main bearings. In order to make a setup like this reliable, the crank shaft would have to be redesigned. The con-rods have too little surface area to tolerate (for long) pushing even a 1500 pound VW chassis without a body. The load carried by the crankshaft mains is also too small. Thus the con rods and crank are place under extremely high (above design specs) loads that wear them out quickly.

So is it cool, yes. However, its not practical, nor a reliable modification.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top